Layer Zymol?

[Todd@RUPES]

The problem is it is impossible to "prove" one way or another because each "layer" of product is so thin (I have been told about 1/1000th of a micron but I don`t know for sure if its true) that it cannot be measured with very expensive lasers.



I pure wax (with out cleaners) still contains the same very strong solvents that transformed little flakes of wax that where harder the concrete into a soft, pilable substance when the wax was in its natural forum. When you have a microscopically thin layer of wax on your paint and reapply the solvents back on top of the microscopically thin layer wax, combined with the aggitation of the new product being applied to going remove any wax not tightly anchored into the pours of the paint. The same product is going to be removed when the excess is removed.



Additonal coats probably do contribute to an increase in apperance as a more even coat is applied over the surface and more of the microscopic areas are coated.

[CalgaryDetail]

just as an fyi, not to cause more debate, but zymol dosent use solvents, they use "natural" (mot sure how natural they really are) oils to emulisfiy the wax. This is the reason for the sweating, the oils o not evaporate the same way as the solvents in other waxes.



I have a feeling the debate over if you can layer wax will go on for years, and the same agruments as always will be brought up...I do however know one thing, multiple layers of the zymol esate glazes do look better then a single layer. So regardless of protection the look of multiple layrs looks better then one

[lbls1]

Technically it probably isn`t impossible to prove; In common practice, however, it would be hard to prove, since a rolling test lab isn`t in the reach of most end users.



You would have to physically observe the effects to come to a conclusion. As I`ve said before, if such products that have solvents which would dissolve layers beneath it (such as cleaner lsp products), then small surface particles such as water, grease and dust spots would be removed. The effects (witnessed) in which non-cleaning agent waxes can glide over the surface residue without removing them could serve as an example of its ability to layer.



Additionally, wax also has to be removed chemically with polishing; It will not necessarily wear off. The sheen and other attributes that produce beading and gloss will wear away, but the thin, gum like residue will remain on the paint and dry.



But there are volumes upon volumes of heresay posts here in the annals of Autopia on the topic of layering. For practical uses, one would want a pure wax or lsp for its ability in "depositing" and enhancing gloss and depth in paint.

[Todd@RUPES]

I don`t think water spots and residue removal mean`s anything because their is still solvent in the product that keeps the carnauba in emulsion. The carrier used may not be strong enough to have the correct properties to remove a particular contaminent but it definetly works on wax (as the fact that you can apply it proves).



Remember that when wax is in its natural state it is at its absolute hardest. If the solvent used in the emulison is strong enough to soften this super hard natural chunk of wax, it is not going to think twice about softening the current and microscopically thin layer of mostly oil that is on the paint.



Calgary-as far as which solvent (or natural oils) are used to soften and emulisfy the wax, I don`t think it matters. The point is that the chemical is strong enough to work on natural hard wax, it is going to laugh at a microscopic layer of barely wax.

[CorruptedSanity]

I didnt know the topic was this debatable or was subject to debate. Ill just layer, the worst ill be doing is just touching up and wasting wax (which is not a bad thing since ill prolly pick up some atlantinque or destiny).

[CalgaryDetail]

I don`t think water spots and residue removal mean`s anything because their is still solvent in the product that keeps the carnauba in emulsion. The carrier used may not be strong enough to have the correct properties to remove a particular contaminent but it definetly works on wax (as the fact that you can apply it proves).



Remember that when wax is in its natural state it is at its absolute hardest. If the solvent used in the emulison is strong enough to soften this super hard natural chunk of wax, it is not going to think twice about softening the current and microscopically thin layer of mostly oil that is on the paint.



Calgary-as far as which solvent (or natural oils) are used to soften and emulisfy the wax, I don`t think it matters. The point is that the chemical is strong enough to work on natural hard wax, it is going to laugh at a microscopic layer of barely wax.

do you layer sealents? they also need solvents to emulsify the sealent base (there are a few diffrent types n the makrket) so would say that its pointless to layer selants? the logic should be similar



btw i have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on this like we have in the past on which waxes are better then others

[CalgaryDetail]

I didnt know the topic was this debatable or was subject to debate. Ill just layer, the worst ill be doing is just touching up and wasting wax (which is not a bad thing since ill prolly pick up some atlantinque or destiny).

go for broke and get vintage, you wont regret it

[lbls1]

Spotting is a tangible test to any product`s ability of layering or removal. If a product cannot remove something as easily cleanable as a dust spot, then how would it possibly remove a dried layer of an lsp? If the product lays on top of a moveable mass of dust, then it will lay right on top of a dried layer of film, irrespective of its chemical manufacturing process.



Emulsification is just a method that transforms the solid raw product into the consumer wax. The final wax ingredient would be entirely different than the agents that were used in manufacturing the product. The chemical manufacturing, as well as the chemicals in the end product`s make-up wouldn`t necessarily exhibit cleaning or dissolving abilities, unless the end product was specifically formulated to clean or dissolve dirt and contaminants.



In the end, we would need an analysis of different products conducted by a chemist in order to prove or dis-prove the issue of layering. There are tangible attributes that suggest that some lsp products layer. But to actually measure amounts of lsp deposits, one would have to analyze a surface and the amount of residue that a product would leave behind.

[SuperBee364]

do you layer sealents? they also need solvents to emulsify the sealent base (there are a few diffrent types n the makrket) so would say that its pointless to layer selants? the logic should be similar



btw i have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on this like we have in the past on which waxes are better then others

I really hate to get in on this, but I just gotta respond to this one...



Have you ever used epoxy? Once epoxy cures, it is no longer solveable by non-cured epoxy. Many substances are this way; once they cure, they are no longer solveable. Portland cement, epoxy, mortar, etc. are all good examnples of this. Even Elmer`s Glue isn`t solveable by itself once it dries. I haven`t tried it, but I have a feeling that most paint sealants are the same way.



Talking about "natural" solvents doesn`t really hold water, either. Some of the most powerful chemicals occur "naturally". Hydrochloric Acid, Cyanide, etc. all occur "naturally". Don`t ever accept a glass of "Peach Pit Juice". Just because the solvents (and don`t kid yourself, they are real solvents) in Vintage occur "naturally" doesn`t mean they are more gentle, or anything else. It means they are effective at solving and holding in suspension the carnauba wax. The fact that they are able to maintain VOC regulations is why they are used. Well, and the "natural oils" advertising doesn`t hurt, either.



Guys, we can sit here and argue this back and forth til we`re all blue in the face. Without having degrees in chemistry, we will just sound like a bunch of kids arguing across the back yard fence.



Use your products and enjoy them.

[CorruptedSanity]

( hoping everyone agrees to disagree- respectfully)



I just applied my second coat! Took me half as long because I kinda developed a method to applying it. I coat both my hands in warm wax, I then use my left hand to apply it to the car. Because I have 5 fingers, the first swipe/swab of my hand leaves more streaks/lines of wax then an even and flat coat. So I keep swiping my hands on the initial area of application downwards or upwards till its even, I then wipe my right hand (full of wax) on the car and use my semi-dry left palm to distribute it. This way the majority of wax on my hands doesnt transfer to the areas of the first 2~3 swipes of my palm.



Hope someone finds the above useful.



I learned from you guys that the wax sweats out the oils and hence a post-buff is needed. I noticed that say 10 minutes after applying and buffing a panel some sort of haze or powdery-like subtsance is on the car ( not uniformly all over) but on some areas. Im guessing that these are the areas where my buff of MF left the car. So the area where all the wax I initially buffed accumulated. Its not at all hard to get off, kinda tricky because just swiping at it relocates it. So I swipe it a lot and flip the Mf to the cleaner side.



Any comments on the above?



Im so excited to hit the 5th application!! (my tub of glasur is almost half way through )

[CorruptedSanity]

Any advice on how to apply field glaze?

Remember the surface of my car is warm, its not hot but neither is it cool.

[CorruptedSanity]

glasur works best applied one pannel at a time, so apply it to one plannel, remove, then move on.



as for ;layering, i have foun all the zymols work best when you follow these steps



1. apply wax

2. remove wax

3. allow to harden and cure for 3-4 hours (you will be able to notice the oils sweating out, the paint becomes less clear then when first applied)

4. After 3-4 hours field glaze the car, his will help remove the oils bringing back the shine as wel as it will help level the wax make it look better.

This step works best if you keep the field glaze in the fridge

5. The next day (althought you can do it now) apply a secon coat an follow the same steps.



hd-cleanse before the first coat only (ofcourse)



you will def notice a iffrencet in paint apperance with multiple layers of glasur....



let u sknow how it goes

Do you mean I have to wait 6~8 hours before applying field glaze? Or do you mean, apply coat, buff, wait 3~4 for it to cure, buff again then apply field glaze?

[Accumulator]

I really hate to get in on this, but I just gotta respond to this one...

Oh geez...me too (see below)..

Guys, we can sit here and argue this back and forth til we`re all blue in the face. Without having degrees in chemistry, we will just sound like a bunch of kids arguing across the back yard fence..

Yeah, I`ll probably come across just like some snotty kid who can`t resist an :argue Sigh.. But anyhow...



If you accept that beading and/or slickness can determine the health of a LSP, IMO testing for layering isn`t all that hard:



Apply a coat of wax to a vehicle`s (entire) hood. Wait the appropriate period of time (or employ some layering method such as spit-shining) and apply some more to half and repeat this wait-and-apply to that side of the hood a few time. Wait a while longer and apply once more to the entire hood. This will result in numerous "applications" on one half and only two on the other. The final whole-hood application will have equalized the starting time for both sides and the second application to the "two application" side will ensure thorough coverage.



Observe the hood and see if the one side beads/stays slick longer than the other. If so, then the product layers; if not, then it doesn`t.



I do layer some products, but not others; if something doesn`t layer I won`t waste my time and effort. Based on this kind of testing, it`s pretty obvious that some "waxes" do layer and some others don`t...it`s not subtle difference either, when the beading/slickness differences are a matter of weeks or even months.



Do the test and base your opinions on the results. I myself did the test a few times with certain products, with consistent results, so IMO I`d be an idiot to believe somebody else`s opinion over my own first-hand experience. Just as anybody else would be an idiot to believe *me* instead of *their* own experience. But you gotta *have* that experience before you know first-hand

[CalgaryDetail]

Do you mean I have to wait 6~8 hours before applying field glaze? Or do you mean, apply coat, buff, wait 3~4 for it to cure, buff again then apply field glaze?

you do not have to wait 6-8 hours to use field glaze,



you have it down with the apply, buff, wait 3-4 hours to cure, then buff with field glaze

[lbls1]

Oh geez...me too (see below)..









Yeah, I`ll probably come across just like some snotty kid who can`t resist an :argue Sigh.. But anyhow...



If you accept that beading and/or slickness can determine the health of a LSP, IMO testing for layering isn`t all that hard:



Apply a coat of wax to a vehicle`s (entire) hood. Wait the appropriate period of time (or employ some layering method such as spit-shining) and apply some more to half and repeat this wait-and-apply to that side of the hood a few time. Wait a while longer and apply once more to the entire hood. This will result in numerous "applications" on one half and only two on the other. The final whole-hood application will have equalized the starting time for both sides and the second application to the "two application" side will ensure thorough coverage.



Observe the hood and see if the one side beads/stays slick longer than the other. If so, then the product layers; if not, then it doesn`t.



I do layer some products, but not others; if something doesn`t layer I won`t waste my time and effort. Based on this kind of testing, it`s pretty obvious that some "waxes" do layer and some others don`t...it`s not subtle difference either, when the beading/slickness differences are a matter of weeks or even months.



Do the test and base your opinions on the results. I myself did the test a few times with certain products, with consistent results, so IMO I`d be an idiot to believe somebody else`s opinion over my own first-hand experience. Just as anybody else would be an idiot to believe *me* instead of *their* own experience. But you gotta *have* that experience before you know first-hand

...I believe you Accumulator buddy!!! Personal experiences say volumes!